diff --git a/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.cpp b/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.cpp
index c8ea10bf69..bf78e812a3 100644
--- a/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.cpp
+++ b/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.cpp
@@ -1177,9 +1177,9 @@ void AP_Param::save_sync(bool force_save, bool send_to_gcs)
         float v1 = cast_to_float((enum ap_var_type)phdr.type);
         float v2;
         if (ginfo != nullptr) {
-            v2 = get_default_value(this, &ginfo->def_value);
+            v2 = get_default_value(this, *ginfo);
         } else {
-            v2 = get_default_value(this, &info->def_value);
+            v2 = get_default_value(this, *info);
         }
         if (is_equal(v1,v2) && !force_save) {
             if (send_to_gcs) {
@@ -1317,10 +1317,10 @@ bool AP_Param::load(void)
                 group_offset += group_nesting.group_ret[i]->offset;
             }
             set_value((enum ap_var_type)phdr.type, (void*)(base + ginfo->offset + group_offset),
-                      get_default_value(this, &ginfo->def_value));
+                      get_default_value(this, *ginfo));
         } else {
             set_value((enum ap_var_type)phdr.type, (void*)base, 
-                      get_default_value(this, &info->def_value));
+                      get_default_value(this, *info));
         }
         return false;
     }
@@ -1448,11 +1448,11 @@ void AP_Param::setup_object_defaults(const void *object_pointer, const struct Gr
         if (type <= AP_PARAM_FLOAT) {
             void *ptr = (void *)(base + group_info[i].offset);
             set_value((enum ap_var_type)type, ptr,
-                      get_default_value((const AP_Param *)ptr, &group_info[i].def_value));
+                      get_default_value((const AP_Param *)ptr, group_info[i]));
         } else if (type == AP_PARAM_VECTOR3F) {
             // Single default for all components
             void *ptr = (void *)(base + group_info[i].offset);
-            const float default_val = get_default_value((const AP_Param *)ptr, &group_info[i].def_value);
+            const float default_val = get_default_value((const AP_Param *)ptr, group_info[i]);
             ((AP_Vector3f *)ptr)->set(Vector3f{default_val, default_val, default_val});
         }
     }
@@ -1493,7 +1493,7 @@ void AP_Param::setup_sketch_defaults(void)
             ptrdiff_t base;
             if (get_base(info, base)) {
                 set_value((enum ap_var_type)type, (void*)base,
-                          get_default_value((const AP_Param *)base, &info.def_value));
+                          get_default_value((const AP_Param *)base, info));
             }
         }
     }
@@ -1647,7 +1647,7 @@ AP_Param *AP_Param::first(ParamToken *token, enum ap_var_type *ptype, float *def
     }
 #if AP_PARAM_DEFAULTS_ENABLED
     if (default_val != nullptr) {
-        *default_val = var_info(0).def_value;
+        *default_val = get_default_value((AP_Param *)base, var_info(0));
     }
     check_default((AP_Param *)base, default_val);
 #endif
@@ -1716,7 +1716,7 @@ AP_Param *AP_Param::next_group(const uint16_t vindex, const struct GroupInfo *gr
                 }
 #if AP_PARAM_DEFAULTS_ENABLED
                 if (default_val != nullptr) {
-                    *default_val = group_info[i].def_value;
+                    *default_val = get_default_value(ret, group_info[i]);
                 }
 #endif
                 return ret;
@@ -1738,13 +1738,13 @@ AP_Param *AP_Param::next_group(const uint16_t vindex, const struct GroupInfo *gr
                     if (!get_base(var_info(vindex), base)) {
                         continue;
                     }
-#if AP_PARAM_DEFAULTS_ENABLED
-                    if (default_val != nullptr) {
-                        *default_val = group_info[i].def_value;
-                    }
-#endif
                     ptrdiff_t ofs = base + group_info[i].offset + group_offset;
                     ofs += sizeof(float)*(token->idx - 1u);
+#if AP_PARAM_DEFAULTS_ENABLED
+                    if (default_val != nullptr) {
+                        *default_val = get_default_value((AP_Param *)ofs, group_info[i]);
+                    }
+#endif
                     return (AP_Param *)ofs;
                 }
             }
@@ -1772,12 +1772,13 @@ AP_Param *AP_Param::next(ParamToken *token, enum ap_var_type *ptype, bool skip_d
         if (ptype != nullptr) {
             *ptype = AP_PARAM_FLOAT;
         }
+        AP_Param *ret = (AP_Param *)(((token->idx - 1u)*sizeof(float))+(ptrdiff_t)var_info(i).ptr);
 #if AP_PARAM_DEFAULTS_ENABLED
         if (default_val != nullptr) {
-            *default_val = var_info(i).def_value;
+            *default_val = get_default_value(ret, var_info(i));
         }
 #endif
-        return (AP_Param *)(((token->idx - 1u)*sizeof(float))+(ptrdiff_t)var_info(i).ptr);
+        return ret;
     }
 
     if (type != AP_PARAM_GROUP) {
@@ -1809,7 +1810,7 @@ AP_Param *AP_Param::next(ParamToken *token, enum ap_var_type *ptype, bool skip_d
             }
 #if AP_PARAM_DEFAULTS_ENABLED
             if (default_val != nullptr) {
-                *default_val = info.def_value;
+                *default_val = get_default_value((AP_Param *)info.ptr, info);
             }
 #endif
             return (AP_Param *)(info.ptr);
@@ -2417,14 +2418,30 @@ void AP_Param::load_embedded_param_defaults(bool last_pass)
 /* 
    find a default value given a pointer to a default value in flash
  */
-float AP_Param::get_default_value(const AP_Param *vp, const float *def_value_ptr)
+float AP_Param::get_default_value(const AP_Param *vp, const struct GroupInfo &info)
 {
     for (uint16_t i=0; i<num_param_overrides; i++) {
         if (vp == param_overrides[i].object_ptr) {
             return param_overrides[i].value;
         }
     }
-    return *def_value_ptr;
+    if ((info.flags & AP_PARAM_FLAG_DEFAULT_POINTER) != 0) {
+        return *((float*)((ptrdiff_t)vp - info.def_value_offset));
+    }
+    return info.def_value;
+}
+
+float AP_Param::get_default_value(const AP_Param *vp, const struct Info &info)
+{
+    for (uint16_t i=0; i<num_param_overrides; i++) {
+        if (vp == param_overrides[i].object_ptr) {
+            return param_overrides[i].value;
+        }
+    }
+    if ((info.flags & AP_PARAM_FLAG_DEFAULT_POINTER) != 0) {
+        return *((float*)((ptrdiff_t)vp - info.def_value_offset));
+    }
+    return info.def_value;
 }
 
 
diff --git a/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.h b/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.h
index 03e31720fb..5dd43ef61f 100644
--- a/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.h
+++ b/libraries/AP_Param/AP_Param.h
@@ -90,13 +90,16 @@
 // hide parameter from param download
 #define AP_PARAM_FLAG_HIDDEN (1<<6)
 
+// Default value is a "pointer" actually its a offest from the base value, but the idea is the same
+#define AP_PARAM_FLAG_DEFAULT_POINTER (1<<7)
+
 // keep all flags before the FRAME tags
 
 // vehicle and frame type flags, used to hide parameters when not
 // relevent to a vehicle type. Use AP_Param::set_frame_type_flags() to
 // enable parameters flagged in this way. frame type flags are stored
 // in flags field, shifted by AP_PARAM_FRAME_TYPE_SHIFT.
-#define AP_PARAM_FRAME_TYPE_SHIFT   7
+#define AP_PARAM_FRAME_TYPE_SHIFT   8
 
 // supported frame types for parameters
 #define AP_PARAM_FRAME_COPTER       (1<<0)
@@ -124,6 +127,9 @@
 // declare a group var_info line with both flags and frame type mask
 #define AP_GROUPINFO_FLAGS_FRAME(name, idx, clazz, element, def, flags, frame_flags) AP_GROUPINFO_FLAGS(name, idx, clazz, element, def, flags|((frame_flags)<<AP_PARAM_FRAME_TYPE_SHIFT) )
 
+// declare a group var_info line with a default "pointer"
+#define AP_GROUPINFO_FLAGS_DEFAULT_POINTER(name, idx, clazz, element, def) {  name, AP_VAROFFSET(clazz, element), {def_value_offset : AP_VAROFFSET(clazz, element) - AP_VAROFFSET(clazz, def)}, AP_PARAM_FLAG_DEFAULT_POINTER, idx, AP_CLASSTYPE(clazz, element) }
+
 // declare a group var_info line
 #define AP_GROUPINFO(name, idx, clazz, element, def) AP_GROUPINFO_FLAGS(name, idx, clazz, element, def, 0)
 
@@ -186,6 +192,7 @@ public:
             const struct GroupInfo *group_info;
             const struct GroupInfo **group_info_ptr; // when AP_PARAM_FLAG_INFO_POINTER is set in flags
             const float def_value;
+            ptrdiff_t def_value_offset; // Default value offset from param object, when AP_PARAM_FLAG_DEFAULT_POINTER is set in flags
         };
         uint16_t flags;
         uint8_t idx;  // identifier within the group
@@ -198,6 +205,7 @@ public:
             const struct GroupInfo *group_info;
             const struct GroupInfo **group_info_ptr; // when AP_PARAM_FLAG_INFO_POINTER is set in flags
             const float def_value;
+            ptrdiff_t def_value_offset; // Default value offset from param object, when AP_PARAM_FLAG_DEFAULT_POINTER is set in flags
         };
         uint16_t flags;
         uint16_t key; // k_param_*
@@ -706,7 +714,8 @@ private:
                                     float *default_val);
 
     // find a default value given a pointer to a default value in flash
-    static float get_default_value(const AP_Param *object_ptr, const float *def_value_ptr);
+    static float get_default_value(const AP_Param *object_ptr, const struct GroupInfo &info);
+    static float get_default_value(const AP_Param *object_ptr, const struct Info &info);
 
     static bool parse_param_line(char *line, char **vname, float &value, bool &read_only);